Christ and Wicca.

[ThunderWolf]

Umm... Sitchin didn't invent the Annunaki. The stories are recorded on tablets that have been interpreted by a various scholars, and the information is basically the same. I happen to know some wiccans, witches and pagans that work with that pantheon and would be very disappointed to find out their gods are fake. Sitchen being a zelot doesn't change the pantheon any more than Zahi Hawass being zelot would nullify the Egyptian pantheon.

I'm sure you already know that, but just saying -lol

In order to keep this on topic: The Sumerians were the originators of the OT material, which lead to the hebrew religion, which lead to the christ religion.  

I work with the Sumerian gods. The real gods. Not the annunaki who truly are not really understood in terms of who/what they actually were. I think Sitchen is full of rubbish.

BTW, Theflyingsorcerer did not claim Sitchen made them up. Just the ancient alien theories relating to them.

[Michael]

Well essentially Wicca is traditionally a mystery tradition with the names of its deities oathbound, so they're fairly specific, and Christ wouldn't be part of them. However it's also a fertility religion that works with the sovereignty of the land, therefore utilising the local energies, myth, lore, and deities, so if one was in Israel and wanted to say incorporate Christ into a rite, I'm sure there's room. Wicca is an orthopraxy, so emphasis is more on the practice, than belief, so interpretation of the divine is very personal, and I happen to know of a Gardnerian who is also a(very liberal) Jew.

In the Western Mystery Tradition especially Abrahammic traditions have influenced Western thought&mysticism, but that's not to say they are the same, or stem from monotheism. The Jewish Kabbalah has been influential in the Hermetic Qabbalah, with the Tetragrammaton being applied outside of monotheism, and Christ has been used as a formula for the dying god who is resurrected.  Alexandrian Wicca emphasises  more of these western esoteric elements, even recognises some elemental entities as angels(which were adopted in a proto-monotheism time of lesser Mesopotamian gods)and Alex Sanders always said Christians were welcome to his circles as long as they could recognise the divine feminine. This would have required them to put their Christian world-view on hold, which isn't really the best thing in their particular religion.

I do get annoyed with many of the anti-Christian attitudes, and reading books supposedly about paganism that bang on about trying to debunk Christianity. I re-read The Meaning of Witchcraft not too long ago and pretty much had to skip the first few chapters, and then another towards the end because Gardner kept banging on about it. May have been relevant at the time, but it has become a dead horse. At the end of the day if someone wants to incorporate Christ into their personal practice as many Christo- Pagans and Christian Witches do, then of course there's room, but he has nothing to do with Wicca's praxis.

[ThunderWolf]

In order to keep this on topic: The Sumerians were the originators of the OT material, which lead to the hebrew religion, which lead to the christ religion. 

This part of your post just caught my eye. You may well know more about it than I which is why I'm making this post. I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion as the Hebrew religion was practiced by Semites and the Sumerians were a non-Semetic people.

[RhiHu]

I guess you can call it a lazy over simplification of what would take a book length post to say. 

I actually tried to type it all out here, but after two hour of typing I'm still just barely into it.  I majored in Archaeology and foreign languages at one time, and I'm obsessed with ancient history and the psychology of our beliefs so I'm more than a wee bit interested in the topic. I've had to do papers specifically on pantheons and Sumerian vs. Akkadian and the progression toward modern beliefs was one of the subjects I had to get into. I can't say I'm all that smart or always correct, but I do try. One thing I'm definitely not good at is being brief -lol

[Ken Ra]

People we are dealing with belief and belief systems. There are way too many academic fat heads calling each other fat heads.  Too much scholarship corrodes the brain.

[RhiHu]

People we are dealing with belief and belief systems. There are way too many academic fat heads calling each other fat heads.  Too much scholarship corrodes the brain.

I was wondering why I wake up to find rust all over my pillow in the morning. Now I know. Thanks Ken Ra -lol

[Theflyingsorcerer]

Too much scholarship corrodes the brain.

Umm, well, I dunno about that. I suspect scholarship might do weird things to an unprotected brain. But some of us just like to study arcane subjects - the arcaner the better - and learn new stuff.

It's necessary, though, as I once read somewhere, to keep an open mind; but not so open that your brains leak out. Aside from anything else, it makes a horrible mess, and some poor doofus is going to have to clean it up........

Theflyingsorcerer.

[Ken Ra]

I have run into academics arguing over the difference between linear b Greek and linear c and whether or not the north side of Mt. Ida was important.

I will ask questions like what good is it?  If you can get some good out of it fine! But otherwise it is useless knowledge of which I have way too much.  Steelworkers Attitude.

[Theflyingsorcerer]

I agree, far too many University academics, particularly in disciplines such as history, sociology and English, spend ridiculous amounts of time discussing the relevance of a particular phrase in Sheridan's "The Rivals", or some such triviality. I suppose they have to justify their existence somehow.

My own academic qualifications are in mechanical engineering, geology and oceanography, so I do tend to take a pragmatic, "What use is it?" approach to learning. But I also recognise that you never know when a particular bit of information might become relevant to a problem you're working on, especially in areas like  witchcraft, magic and Earth Mysteries; so I tend to read widely in subjects as diverse as fringe archaeology, religious history, theosophy, psychology, UFO's, the European mystery traditions, leylines...... You should see my library. In a word, it's a shambles. I keep building more shelves, but there's never enough space, books get piled on tables and in corners; and as for the Internet, well..... I spend far too much time peering at the computer screen and printing off page after page; like now, for example.... I really need to get some sleep....

Then there's always the necessity for the proverbial Grain of Salt - or sometimes, an entire shaker.....

Blessed Be everyone,

Theflyingsorcerer.

[TalonRath]

I just wanted to throw some information out there. While there is very little to any good evidence about Jesus there is plenty of documentary evidence( especially from the Jewish Historian Josephus who was anti Christian) about his followers and their executions. While I'm not Christian it does make you wonder what could make these men wiling to sacrifice their lives. Especially since it was well before statecraft became involved.

[Theflyingsorcerer]

There have always been men and women willing to be imprisoned, to be tortured, even to die, for a religious or even a political idea; Jews at Masada, Cathars at Montsegur, Muslims at the Twin Towers, Christians throughout history, freethinkers and heretics of every imaginable variety. And it seems almost as if the less solid, unambiguous evidence that exists for a particular Belief System, or BS, the more willing people are to die for it...... Curious.

It was a guiding principle among the mediaeval Rosicrucians (I'm not referring to the modern sects that use the name, most of whose legitimacy is suspect at best), and of many Sufi sects, to "wear the clothing and follow the laws of the land wherein ye dwell"; in other words, keep your own counsel, be inconspicuous - martyrdom serves no purpose. If you are required by an oppressive regime to attend church, then attend church. If asked to state your faith, pretend to be strictly orthodox; but preserve the gnosis in your heart. We're lucky, in the Western world at the beginning of the 21st century, that we don't (generally) need to resort to such subterfuges. Most of us, anyway.

Christ and Wicca. Well...... Assuming the man Yeshua ben Yussef, known as The Christ, actually existed, which is by no means certain, we know virtually nothing of what he actually taught, since he apparently never wrote anything down himself. All we have are secondary sources; hearsay, in other words. None of the Canonical Gospels was written while Christ was alive, and it is highly unlikely that any of the Gospel writers actually knew him. In any case, all the Gospels have been heavily edited, altered, censored and interpolated to correspond to the prevailing orthodoxy in the centuries since they were first written, to the extent that it is impossible to know with any certainty what the originals said.

Even the Nag Hammadi documents seem to be second-century at best; if you can find a copy of "The Nag Hammadi Library in English" (J.M.Robinson [editor], Harper & Row, New York, 1978; pb edition, 1981), it make fascinating, if frustrating, reading. Fascinating, because some of the Tractates seem to hint at earlier writings that have disappeared, and others give interpretations of ancient legends at variance with the orthodox versions; frustrating, because many are fragmented and others show annoying hints of having been edited even at such an early date.

So; to incorporate Christ into Wicca raises an immediate difficulty; what is there to incorporate? His writings? There aren't any. His teaching? We can't be sure what he actually taught. His legend? Possible, but the Christ legend is paralleled by dozens - probably hundreds - of similar or even identical tales originating throughout Europe and Asia, notably that of the Egyptian god-king Horus; so what's the point?

It all comes down to personal preference. If you feel the need to have Christ in your Pantheon, then by all means do so; no-one can tell you, with any authority, that you're "wrong". For myself I don't see the point of it, but I'm not going to argue with anyone who wants to.

Blessed Be, Live Long, Live with Joy.

(Assuming Joy wants to live with you, of course.)

Theflyingsorcerer.  

[RhiHu]

How do you know what Hecate says or teaches? How do you know what Hades thinks about various matters? What does Dionysus have to say about current events? Simple answer, ask them. If someone tells me they saw a vision of Aradia and she told them something I'm not going to go into semantics with them about why it could not have been her. So, with all the people who claim to have had a vision of Jesus or conversation with him, who are any of us to argue.

[Theflyingsorcerer]

How do you know what Hecate says or teaches? How do you know what Hades thinks about various matters? What does Dionysus have to say about current events? Simple answer, ask them. If someone tells me they saw a vision of Aradia and she told them something I'm not going to go into semantics with them about why it could not have been her. So, with all the people who claim to have had a vision of Jesus or conversation with him, who are any of us to argue.

An excellent point, RhiHu. I agree, no-one can argue with anyone else's personal Pantheon or vision or message. It's only when someone claims that their vision is the One True Faith and all others are "wrong", that we have problems.

Theflyingsorcerer.

[Ken Ra]

How do you know what Hecate says or teaches? How do you know what Hades thinks about various matters? What does Dionysus have to say about current events? Simple answer, ask them. If someone tells me they saw a vision of Aradia and she told them something I'm not going to go into semantics with them about why it could not have been her. So, with all the people who claim to have had a vision of Jesus or conversation with him, who are any of us to argue.

An excellent point, RhiHu. I agree, no-one can argue with anyone else's personal Pantheon or vision or message. It's only when someone claims that their vision is the One True Faith and all others are "wrong", that we have problems.

Theflyingsorcerer.

We can say that it is not what our experience has told us. Or that it does not sound like what XYZ would say.  Or even,  " You are too weird for me STAY away. " 

[RhiHu]

We can say that it is not what our experience has told us. Or that it does not sound like what XYZ would say.  Or even,  " You are too weird for me STAY away. " 

Stay away, really? Or you'll what?

Is it really that WEIRD to not persecute others for their beliefs? How do you expect others to accept you if your not willing to do the same for them. It's a two way street and at some point one of the parties has to pick who is going to play 'grown up' in the situation. I just think it's really ugly and shows a bad face to wicca and witchcraft in general to be like that. I don't want any part in bullying others and insisting that they change there beliefs in order to avoid nasty remarks from pagan elders who should know better On that note... you know what... I'll leave. .