Breaking Away

[Cup of Joe]

Hey everyone,

From time to time I've had some serious trouble breaking away from the Christian roots, and it's caused me some distress. I feel overcome with fear, anxiety, and apprehension and leaving Christianity. I recognize this for what it is... and various thoughts plague me...
"What if I'm wrong for leaving Christianity?" "What if Christianity really is the truth?" "Will I damn myself by breaking away from Christianity?" These very thoughts, and others similar to them are making it difficult for me to progress with my faith. I know that deep down, Christianity is not right for me. For me to go back would be done purely out of fear that leaving it would be the wrong thing to do. I do not believe in Christianity as truth. And I know that Wica is the right path for me, but I have a feeling that may inexperience with Wicca gives me the idea that my faith isn't strong enough to combat the perceived fear of "being wrong". Any ideas on how to deal with this? Has anyone else dealt with it before? How did you get over it?

[Kaleesie]

Amost every xtain has had to face this from a slight issue, to an extreme issue, when converting to a different faith.

And it's hard, hell, I was a Sunday school teacher and spewed John 3:16 to everyone I met for over 15 years. I was so afraid of tickin "the big guy" off.

I had to separate myself mentally from xtains. (was still surrounded by them) I had to deprogram myself. And how I did that was read read read.

I read books that showed flaws in the xtain bible. I read different cultures and religions.

I hope this helps.
Good luck and blessed be
Kaleesie

[ThunderWolf]

I like that idea of finding flaws in the xtian thought. I never really did feel that it made sense but was brought up being "dragged" to church every Sunday. It was such a "given" that I didn't even try to fight it (as "dragged" might imply). Over time I did my best to accept it simply because I didn't know any other spiritual path.

When I was 17 a friend of mine asked some very pointed questions that showed obvious flaws in xtian thought, and that was all it took for me. For the next several years I described myself as atheist. I knew there was "something" there but didn't really know what it was. So I just spent a few years denying the existence of any deity. Once I started learning of "new age" thought I realized this fit better with me than anything I had come across before.

So by then I didn't have any problems with worrying that I was wrong. And what all set that in motion was a few pointed questions that poked holes in what seemed at the time to be the core of xtian thought while just standing in the lunch line in high school.

There's a book (at least one) that I've come across that I think has something to do with "Lies in the Bible" or "Lies the Bible Tells Us". Something to that effect anyway. I'm sure if you did a websearch you would be able to find it. I'd suggest getting your hands on a copy of that. The suggestion to read and find flaws is the best way I can imagine to get past it. When the xtian way of thinking/believing is put up against the cold light of reason it doesn't stand up. Even my pastor growing up realized that. When I was in catechism he spent quite some time telling us how wrong it was to question things and use logic as a yardstick. It just doesn't make sense, and he knew that too.

[Ken Ra]

I have a feeling that may inexperience with Wicca gives me the idea that my faith isn't strong enough to combat the perceived fear of "being wrong".

Right and Wrong are tied to your integrity.  To believe because someone says that something is so or because it is written in a fancy book debases your integrity.  Something is true because it fits your knowledge of reality as an integral part of the whole.

Wiccan Theology:  We are not separate from the Lord and Lady,  we are part of them.  If we violate our  own integrity we harm the Lord and Lady themselves.

The price of Truth is courage one day at a time.

[ferox1012]

Good evening ladies and gentlemen[smile].
Cup Of Joe, only idiots and crazy people never have any doubts about their faith, and almost every good, Godly, Christian I ever knew had such doubts at one time or another as well. This is normal. This is what makes "Faith" necessary, and a Christian that never doubts anything, ever,  is a Christian that can never know True Faith in God[Aside from being a sign of intelligence. Too many religious people never question anything about their faiths, it's as if they think that God will get angry with them for wondering about things. Be very suspicious of Christians that never have doubts or question spiritual matters/Scripture, because they are usually out of touch with reality and prone to making huge mistakes. Take Ken Ham's views on biology/science, for example..]. We are not meant to know or understand everything, it is not our place. The Gods only let us know what they think we need to know, and after that it's all up to us to try and figure things out as best as we can...and when we reach the boundary of that, we just have to have Faith.

I shall tell you the story of what happened to me years ago when I was going through what you are going through.
I was laying in bed late one night wondering and worrying, and that night before I slipped off to sleep I said a prayer to God asking for help, expressing my fears and doubts about being wrong about Christianity and accidentally damning my soul to Hell due to my poor choices in life in regards to this matter. That night I had a most vivid and helpful dream.

In the dream, I was in Deep Space, deep in the Cosmos somewhere..I could see all around myself at the endless stars and other heavenly bodies. I could not see of feel myself as I usually do withing my dreams, as if I was a ghost/spirit. Up ahead of me there was, seeming to float in space, some sort of a huge podium or altar table, and upon this there was a huge book opened up to it's middle[?]. It was such an immense book that each half of it was as big as a small house. I approached it and looked at a page, and every inch of it was filled with sections of tiny complicated script that I couldn't decipher[I looked like a combination of Sanskrit and Futhark Runes.], and I came to understand that THIS was the "Book Of Life" mentioned within Christianity that held the names of the souls that were allowed into Heaven. I became aware then of a powerful presence, and I looked beside me and saw...what I can only think of as an Angel. This was no cute, swan-winged, friendly looking, sissyfied Angel like the kind you see on Hallmark Cards though. This was a person you didn't want to get on the bad side of.
He was wearing what looked like some sort of a white robe or dress[?], and when I tried to look down to see what the bottom of the garment looked like, I couldn't because the thing just kept going down forever, fading away into the distance. He looked much like a man, with "pale" colored skin[can't place an ethnicity to him though. He could have been Italian, Eastern, Greek, Iranian....], long black hair, mustache, and a short beard, and eyes that where completely black, but as I got close to him, I noticed that there was a speck of light where his pupils should be, as if he had two tiny stars in his eyes. He seemed much bigger than I. Powerful. Dangerous, even. I was scared, and as I watched, he went over to the book[somehow], looked down at it, and back at me and said in a deep but calm and reassuring voice "Do not worry about trifles. Just ever strive to be a good person, and everything will be alright." and as he looked at me and said this he patted the page of the book, and I got the strong impression that he was implying that if I followed his advice I would end up in the book, and Heaven.
And then I woke up. It was around 1a.m.
I just lay there in bed for awhile, and I had......SUCH a feeling of peace and contentment, and decided that I had gotten an answer straight from the Divine.

Now, could it have just been a meaningless dream? Of course.
Could it have been Satan screwing with me in a way that would lead me astray? Why not?
But I don't think so.

You could do the same thing....make a prayer for help/guidance and an answer through a dream and see what happens.

The Bible, God, Heaven and Hell, what it takes to get there and to be a good Christian,...all of these things are a LOT more complicated and hard to understand that people like Pat Robertson would have you believe.
If you wish to be something other than a Christian, then you do whatever you need to do to in life to feel fulfilled and be a better person. As long as you never stop loving, learning, and helping others, then, from a Christian perspective, you're still doing God's work on Earth, no matter what your faith[if any at all], and I personally have a VERY hard time believing that that won't be taken into favorable consideration by any Divine entity that's worth a darn.
If you DO decide to go back to being a Christian, well, just remember that there's an awful lot of different kinds of Christians in the world, so you'd still have as much wiggle-room deciding what kind of a Christian you wanted to be as you would if you were deciding what kind of a non-Christian you wanted to be.
I hope that this was of some help, and I wish you nothing but the best in all that you do. Lets us all know how things work out for you.  

[Raydo]

Joe, I never personally went through your doubts and fears. You want to know something interesting? My dad doesn't see how if the Christian God is all loving as he's said to be, how he would send his children into eternal torment. Also, originally there wasn't a hell, it was a place where the dead went to sleep until their souls could be reunited with God. It didn't become fire and brimstone until later.

Also, I was reminded of a snippet of conversation I had with my dad.

me: and wouldn't I already be told by the fundie christians that I'm going to hell since I'm not christian, much less not their chirstian
 
Dad: oh yeah, but I'd be much worse off cuz I'm a christian misleading other christians with heresy and blasphemy and stuff like that

me: hee, like that one person who called you the anti-christ?
 
Dad: you would have a warm corner. My chair would be on fire and I'd have eternal hemorrhoids!
yep
cuz we christians is all about LUV
 
me: *but only if you're the right kind of Christian
 
Dad: God is luv and if you don't luv like we tell you to, God's luv will smack you down hard! cus god luvs you
oh, and jesus died for your sins, you sinner!

me: and wasn't Jesus's main message, be nice and take care of others?

Dad: love god, love your neighbor as yourself, don't be rich

I hope some of this helps ease some fears.

[Asthmadeus Lucy Vera]

All I can tell you is evolution theory sounds more rational at least as hypothesis that needs to be studied for further. Also if God is omnipotent then He should make us His submissive followers and place us in Heaven. Also He should make all devils good. So there are paradoxes when you learn about God's omnipotence and God' love. For me there is no doubt to say there are things wrong in beliefs that people have followed recently (No, I am not saying all). That is why I chose to be an agnostic witch. I practice magicks only to take benefits from them so on one hand, I am a witch but on the other hand, I am a free/critical thinker.

[LupusStormDancer]

Nobody ever said you HAD to break away from christianity completely, you can still incorperate certain christian beliefs. It might suprise you to know that a lot of what Wiccans believe are reflected in some christian beliefs. I don't think you could possibly damn yourself just by taking a few steps away from christianity, the Goddess loves her people too much to allow that

[Kaleesie]

Nobody ever said you HAD to break away from christianity completely, you can still incorperate certain christian beliefs. It might suprise you to know that a lot of what Wiccans believe are reflected in some christian beliefs. I don't think you could possibly damn yourself just by taking a few steps away from christianity, the Goddess loves her people too much to allow that

Honey, this is very difficult, and I really hate to stereotype people, but most Christians would not/could not understand incorporating and polytheism faith to monotheism... I know. I used to be one.

Down here (south) if you don't accept Jesus into your heart, your going to hell to agonize in a lake of fire for eternity. If you even say Goddess you get "get a rope" looks.

Now I don't know where cup of joe lives, but if it's in the south, I can see that this idea would be nearly impossible to succeed.

And I think if he decides to do this, he'd still be in the closet to most People. 

Sorry to say this about the stereotypicalization of Christians, I've just had a lot of experience with this..

**disclaimor cpdue to lack of sleep, I will not be correcting any typos.

BB
Kaleesie

[RhiHu]

Hi Joe,

I've had to wrestle with that situation myself. The best advice I can give is to never leave who you love and who you feel love from. If you love Mary, then never leave her side no matter what path you travel.... or buddah, or whoever. Your head can tell you any system is wrong and flawed, but unless your heart is in agreement then you do yourself a disservice to leave a diety for a cold system simply based on the religions of men. Your a gay man, so I think you get the concept... no one can tell you who to love and their insistance that your love is wrong might cause you pain, but not as much as following their advice would in the long run.

If you feel no love for a christian diety, then go find love elsewhere. If you feel love somewhere else, then follow that love. The human facts of any system are never going to be ideal, but real love is always ideal.

[Selenemoon]

Hey hun, of course your finding things difficult. If you grew up as a christian, then realising that your beliefs have changed is going to be very difficult. I too had a fairly christian upbringing, I used to find the social side of the religion a supportive and helpful environment to grow up in, I saw the same people at church every week and we all knew eachother and where friendly, if you had a problem then there was somebody to talk to.
Then as I grew older around the age of 11 I started to question things and I couldnt find answers in my religion. I found some books about wicca and they seemed to talk alot of sence. I learned as much as I could and have never looked back since in that respect, but what I found hard was that everyone thought it was so wrong! None of my friends from church would speak to me, people talked behind my back. For a long time I felt very lonely and isolated.
christianity is accepted as the norm and wicca still has a stigma attatched to it and I found myself wondering whether I should practice anything at all!
My advice to you would be to try and  find some like minded friends who can talk to you about your worries. There are probably some pagan organisations in your area if you look. This is how I managed to put these thoughts to rest. I wish you all the best. poppy x

[Ann Cash]

With so many different religions throughout the world, why would Christianity be any more "right" than any other religion? They all claim to be the truth. They just don't all push that truth the way Christianity has done over history. Religions (all of them) are man-made. They come from the human psyche, and they are products of their specific regions of the world. Christianity has spread far and wide because the Catholic church made it its mission to do that. In doing so, many cultures were squashed into submission. It was mankind who claimed Christianity was "the one truth", not "God". The Bible was a product of commissioned work, therefore there was an agenda behind its development...a human agenda. It was a means of giving uneducated masses something they could believe it, and being able to control those masses through fear and manipulation. Apparently, it's worked for thousands of years. However, like every major religion that has come before it, it's beginning to lose strength. People are branching out (like you), and exploring other possibilities. You might be witnesses the same thing happening in the Islamic culture. As members of the Muslim faith become more educated, and worldly, some of them are testing the "truths" of their own faith. They are also exploring life outside the confines of Islam, fearing less the punishments of their explorations. Every religion in history has risen, been embraced, and faded with time, to be replaced by something new. It's a human condition. Christianity will follow the same route in time. So will Islam, and other mainstream religions.

For me, the Divine doesn't change, only our perceptions of it do. I think the Divine, whether you call it God, Goddess, or whatever, understands that we are still evolving. The Divine is much, much bigger than anything we have yet to grasp. We get occasional glimpses of what it is, so we believe in something beyond everything here. Those glimpses cause some people to try to document what it is. I think that's where things like the Bible come from. It's trying to get a handle on something that's just out of reach, so to speak. But being human, we can't help but put our own spin, our own agenda, on it. You have to follow your instinct, your inner voice to find the right path for you. No path is wrong if it gives you what you need in your soul, if it brings you peace and joy. It's only wrong if it doesn't fit you. I have often told people that it's not that I don't believe in God. It's simply that I don't believe in the Christian version of what God is.
Good luck in your search, Joe.
BB  Ann
 

[Zombinos20]

Hi Joe, how are you today? 

As so many people have told you, you do not need to hide the christian god from yourself to full say "I am a wicaan" or "I am a witch and enjoy this faith more". I have not turned from god at all even though I feel my heart now lies with Mother Gaia and Hermes, but rather that I feel much more of the christian god as a friend that took care of me a long time ago. Having done that and helping me he knows I am able to grow more by finding a different faith to become a better person than I am now.

I cannot follow the christain faith though, I just cannot bring myself to bring fellowship to a group of people that secretly look at you like you are different and evil. Since when was being helpful and friendly dangerous is beyond me. But, the christain god, yeah he's great. I've had a few experiences several years ago praying to him where I felt his presence and my oh my it was powerful.

Anyways, I'm rambling, YOU need to do what is right for YOU and allow the Divine to guide you to your ultimate path. Good luck with everything.

[Cup of Joe]

First of all, I want to thank each of you for the support and words that you have given me! They have helped me a lot in putting things into perspective, and each of you brings a valid point to the discussion. Many of you took the time to write fairly lengthy replies, and there is no way that I could respond to each of you individually. I have every intention of taking what each of you has said to heart, reflecting on it, and allowing it to help me. Again, thank you. All of you.

Blessed Be. )0(

[ferox1012]

You are welcome, Sir.