What do you think about Aleister Crowley?

[thorrsgirl]

Summoning demons. Hmm. well, the original meaning of the word demon was spirit. It had no context of good/evil. Just spirit. So by the old definition, I have summoned demons. Talked to them and worked with them. I am not evil, corrupt or a satanist.

I wish people could learn to use words as they were intended before they speak.

[Kaleesie]

Well, I never met the guy. But I started reading Confssions... And he might have been a pioneer, he might have accomplished many things.. But his arrogance is less than pleasent. The fact the he talked of himself in the 3rd person up until the age of around his fathers death makes me want to scratch my head . I understand that at that point in his life, he felt he changed, but come on.

I tried to read on, but was pulled away by a screaming child.

Blessed be
Kaleesie

[Theflyingsorcerer]

Crowley believed every action is a magical action.
 

Erm..... not exactly.

Right at the beginning of "Magick in Theory and Practice", Crowley defines Magick as "The Art  and Science of causing Change to occur in conformity with the Will". And just in case we weren't paying attention the first time, he then gives us a secondary definition;

"Every INTENTIONAL act is a Magickal act."


The keyword here is of course "intentional".  Crowley recognised - though he didn't have the Behaviorist jargon to express his ideas in, since he was writing about 30 years before Behaviorism was invented - that most human action is not "intentional" at all, but programmed, the result of decades of conditioning by parents, teachers, politicians, advertisers, religious pundits..... to the extent that very little that we do - strict Behaviorists would say nothing that we do - is of our own volition.

Crowley's Magick is, in its essentials, a set of techniques for breaking through the multiple layers of programming and conditioning we all have, in order to be able to authentically act from free will, or Intention, and thus to be able to truly, in New Age terminology, "Create your own reality."

Magickal action, then, could be defined as "The conscious, intentional creation of Realities."

Almost the whole of Magic(k), occultism, Witchcraft and Wicca, post-1930s, and even much of contemporary artistic and musical culture owes a huge debt to Crowley; and as often as not, the debt is unacknowledged. Without Crowley, it's questionable whether contemporary Wicca, ceremonial magic, Chaos Magick, and even much of what is called the New Age, would even exist.

Blessed Be everyone,

Theflyingsorcerer.

[Michael]

Well I can't really add much more else compared to what has already been said. Aside from being a Wiccan, I'm also a Thelemite and a member of the O.T.O(as was Gardner), so obviously I'm a fan. He was a very flawed man though. I appreciate his revealing of the New Aeon, and breaking down the elaborate Golden Dawn Rituals to coincide with it. He had brilliant poetry, wove Thelema together with much genius and beauty, and also gave us his magnificent Thoth Tarot Cards. I acknowledge him for that, but don't hold him up on a huge pedestal or anything, because I do disagree with some of his stuff that he was probably off his head on drugs when he wrote it, and that he only had the time to do some of the exercises he advertised because he didn't have to worry about money(as many of those rich Golden Dawn folk), and yet still managed to squander all of his father's inherited fortune.  

[sabrina1966]

true power is within aliste was trying to atact demons with vulgar and sick rituals to control demons ...but that path leads to dearth cause its a trap...power within takes disapline and practice but its true power ,,the spirit moves to higher levels the other way its false power...it  gives u a taste if it doesnt kill you right away or posses u then it destroys you...the path of love is the right one

[Theflyingsorcerer]

Well I can't really add much more else compared to what has already been said. Aside from being a Wiccan, I'm also a Thelemite and a member of the O.T.O(as was Gardner), so obviously I'm a fan. 

Which O.T.O. is that then, Michael? There are several distinct groups, all claiming to be the "real" O.T.O, and they all seem to spend a great deal of time and energy slanging and denouncing all the other, "false" or "upstart" O.T.O.s, to the extent that an impartial observer might have serious doubts about the legitimacy of all of them. I was a member of the Caliphate O.T.O., of which Grady McMurtry ("Hymenaeus Alpha") was the Outer Head, for a while, but the starry-eyed Crowley-worship of most of the other members I met seemed to be a bit excessive.

I suspect that Crowley largely engineered the confusion himself, deliberately muddying the waters of Succession to weed out those of his followers insufficiently canny to figure out what he was up to. He was, after all, primarily a Trickster, and often sent some of his excessively worshipful followers off on wild goose chases; in some cases, he had to almost physically drive them away. For the same reason, much of Crowley's writing is deliberately cryptic, with several layers of meaning; it takes a sharp mind to dig down beneath the surface and discover his real message. The intention, always, is to get his students to think for themselves, and to not simply believe everything they hear or read.

In this he was merely following the ancient tradition of the Trickster-Guru, the most obvious modern example being perhaps George Gurdjieff, who often gave his students preposterously nonsensical instruction, just to see how they would react. Most just blindly accepted whatever they were told; a few, quite reasonably, decided their Master was stark raving bonkers, and simply left; a very, very small number realised what he was doing and - again - started to think for themselves. Then they usually left too; but they took away a valuable lesson.

I'm sure that Gurdjieff, Crowley, and many others valued their few independent-minded students far more than their crowds of unthinking worshippers. After all, the only really legitimate function of any teacher is to bring the student to the point where he or she doesn't need the teacher any more. This fact is the key to discovering whether your teacher is genuine or not; tell him you want to leave. If he tries desperately to hold onto you, it's a pretty safe bet that he's nothing but a power-tripper. The usual ploy is to tell you, "When you feel like leaving, that's the time you really need to keep going", which sounds profound but is actually self-serving nonsense; it's like saying "When you're feeling stuffed, that's when you really need to keep eating."

As always, trust your own intuition. A teacher who is right for someone else might not be right for you. This applies as much to Crowley as to any other teacher.

Blessed Be everyone,

Theflyingsorcerer.

[Michael]

Well I can't really add much more else compared to what has already been said. Aside from being a Wiccan, I'm also a Thelemite and a member of the O.T.O(as was Gardner), so obviously I'm a fan. 

Which O.T.O. is that then, Michael? There are several distinct groups, all claiming to be the "real" O.T.O, and they all seem to spend a great deal of time and energy slanging and denouncing all the other, "false" or "upstart" O.T.O.s, to the extent that an impartial observer might have serious doubts about the legitimacy of all of them. I was a member of the Caliphate O.T.O., of which Grady McMurtry ("Hymenaeus Alpha") was the Outer Head, for a while, but the starry-eyed Crowley-worship of most of the other members I met seemed to be a bit excessive.

Caliphate as well Bro., only with Hymenaeus Beta now. I'm a member of Khephra Oasis in Ireland. Despite all of the other claims out there, we're actually the ones with the legal rights to the name&lamen. There was a schism as well here, where apparently some people got nasty, and it involved lawsuits, and name changes with another Thelemic Order, but thankfully I wasn't around then, and it has all been settled.

[Wolf99]

Meh...  Raven's first point was that Crowley was a satanist.  I see Raven's opinion now changed, no longer a satanist?, now just one who "does evil things"?

Secondly, there are hundreds of tribes in third world, south america, indonesia, parts of Africa who practice blood sacrifice.  It is commonplace in many tribes, as has been said, is that to say, that because they deal in blood sacrifice, that they are evil?

I'm sorry but I dint like chastising without merit.  Is it our place to judge Crowley?  He's dead by the way.  If we do as Raven suggests, then we judge so very many the same.  Nobody said Crowley was Wiccan (goodness no!), but nobody said as well that that blood sacrifice was evil, nor Wiccan!.  I myself do not use blood sacrifice, however, there is much power in it, and the dozens, perhaps hundreds of tribes across the world in this current time, believe as well.  That in itself makes the point moot.  Moot.

There's way too much wishy wash here, the point argued was "Crowley is a satanist".  That point has been defeated and now contorted to a new "argument'.   I hope there are other points of view towards Crowley's work that continue this thread, its a circus, currently.   A pity really.

BB Sprite

Sorry to be of topic, can you tell me more about blood rituals, meaning drawing your own blood, and do people do that with every spell they use, is that more effective ?I really want to hear more. I dont know anything about crowley, not saying I would do it, it sounds interesting.

[Cleaner]

Meh...  Raven's first point was that Crowley was a satanist.  I see Raven's opinion now changed, no longer a satanist?, now just one who "does evil things"?

Secondly, there are hundreds of tribes in third world, south america, indonesia, parts of Africa who practice blood sacrifice.  It is commonplace in many tribes, as has been said, is that to say, that because they deal in blood sacrifice, that they are evil?

I'm sorry but I dint like chastising without merit.  Is it our place to judge Crowley?  He's dead by the way.  If we do as Raven suggests, then we judge so very many the same.  Nobody said Crowley was Wiccan (goodness no!), but nobody said as well that that blood sacrifice was evil, nor Wiccan!.  I myself do not use blood sacrifice, however, there is much power in it, and the dozens, perhaps hundreds of tribes across the world in this current time, believe as well.  That in itself makes the point moot.  Moot.

There's way too much wishy wash here, the point argued was "Crowley is a satanist".  That point has been defeated and now contorted to a new "argument'.   I hope there are other points of view towards Crowley's work that continue this thread, its a circus, currently.   A pity really.

BB Sprite

Sorry to be of topic, can you tell me more about blood rituals, meaning drawing your own blood, and do people do that with every spell they use, is that more effective ?I really want to hear more. I dont know anything about crowley, not saying I would do it, it sounds interesting.

Out of respect for the OP of this thread please stay ON TOPIC.  What do you think about Aleister Crowley?









B.B.)O(
   Cleaner

[Theflyingsorcerer]

Even more than 60 years after his death, Aleister Crowley still inspires fanatical devotion in many of his followers; as do many other trickster-gurus such as Gurdjieff, Vivekananda, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, and, of course, J.C. himself. It seems to me that it's the fanatical devotion that is the entire problem. If we simply accepted the useful bits of their teachings, recognised that for all their wisdom they were all just flawed human beings, and moved on, everything would be fine, but no, fanaticism takes over and at that point real learning stops.

Crowley, for all his undoubted wisdom, was perhaps more deeply flawed than most, but that doesn't stop the worshippers. There's a point in the O.T.O. Minerval initiation ritual where the candidate is asked, "Do you accept the 'Book of the Law' as authoritative, without wishing to change it?" The expected answer is of course "Yes", but the honest answer is "No, of course not." The question is right down there on all fours with "Do you accept the Bible as the Inerrant Word of God?"

Crowley always claimed that the Book of the Law ("Liber Al vel Legis") was dictated to him in Cairo in 1904 by a mysterious discorporate entity called Aiwass; if so, it is easy to suspect that Aiwass (or perhaps Crowley) was under the influence of some suspect mushrooms at the time. "Liber Al", the "Bible of the New Aeon" to most Thelemites, is a curious mishmash of mythology, failed poetry and extreme right-wing Libertarian philosophy all couched in a somewhat archaic writing style reminiscent of some Biblical passages. It is in "Liber Al" that the Thelemite motto, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" first appears; but this idea didn't originate with Crowley.

"Do what thou wilt" was the motto of the Abbey of Thelema ("Will") in the 16th century French author Francois Rabelais' strange tale, "Gargantua and Pantagruel", and it was also used as the motto of Sir Francis Dashwood's notorious 18th century Hellfire Club; but in fact it has an even earlier antecedent. Saint Augustine (354-430 C.E.), Bishop of Hippo in Numidia from 391 until his death, in his "Seventh Homily on the First Book of John, Chapters 4-12", wrote "Love, and do what ye will." It's rather ironic that when Thelemites quote "Do what thou wilt...." believing that they are ushering in the New Aeon of Horus, they are in fact expressing the same philosophy as the good Christian Bishop......

In conclusion, I can do no better than to leave you with the words of Peter Carroll, Author of "Liber Null" and "Psychonaut", and originator of Chaos Magic:-

"....Crowley's mistake was to accept his own mystical visions at face value and become dogmatic about them. He discovered techniques of unleashing the awesome powers and creativity of the right cerebral hemisphere and subconscious but was so surprised at the result that he assumed it was of inhuman origin, and all this despite his dictum that... there are no gods but man."

(Peter Carroll, "The Magic of Chaos"; http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/mach.html )

Blessed Be everyone,

Theflyingsorcerer.

[Michael]

That part in the Minerval initiation has been commented on before, and Rodney Orpheus elaborated with us that it implies accepting the book as it is without adding anything more, and since "Do what thou Wilt" is "the whole of the Law", it is up to us to accept and interpret from it what we will, but applying more to it can lead to many other things, which easily provides the environment for factions and schisms. I think Gardner even said something like "Dow what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, as long as it's Crowley's Law," but many do indeed recognise Crowley as the prophet without holding him up on a pedestal. He was probably most influential as a poet than a magician, and it's known from one of my Bodymasters who read most of his diaries when writing his books that he was off his head on drugs a lot of the time when writing rituals. We even transcribed Liber Al individually one year for the 'Feast of the Writing', and can say there's no way that it was written in three hours.

 

[Cheeseburgers]

I think it has already been established but Crowley was definitely not a Satanist. I believe he was very controversial and enjoyed being infamous. However, he was very intelligent and I believe his works are worth the read. Does anyone have any books that they can suggest to me that is by Crowley? I think I need to educate myself more on him ^^

[malewitch42]

i may not agree with everything crowley wrote and did but he was a brilliant man and there is much to be learned from him and even in some of his writings i disagree with he does give a lot of warnings of the dangers of certain actions all in all he is definatly worth researching all i would say is be sure that you go in not only with an open mind but knowing who you are and what your own morals are as well

[Michael]

I think it has already been established but Crowley was definitely not a Satanist. I believe he was very controversial and enjoyed being infamous. However, he was very intelligent and I believe his works are worth the read. Does anyone have any books that they can suggest to me that is by Crowley? I think I need to educate myself more on him ^^

One thing about Crowley being a Cambridge undergrad and with his Golden Dawn background, is that when he wrote, he just assumed everyone knew as much as he did, so a lot of people find him hard to follow, and even have to re-read his material quite a few times to understand him, but then there's others that get him from the start. Author's like Lon Milo DeQuette, and Rodney Orpheus definitely break him down much easier, so I'd recommend keeping an eye out for them if you'reable. For anyone that uses Crowley's Thoth tarot cards, I'd recommend DeQuette's Understand the Thoth not only for the cards, but he introduces Crowley&Thelema in a very understandable way.


For Crowley, I'd probably recommend" Book 4"(or "ABA/Magick") initially. You can even find most of his stuff online. http://hermetic.com/crowley/books/#title

[Cheeseburgers]

I think it has already been established but Crowley was definitely not a Satanist. I believe he was very controversial and enjoyed being infamous. However, he was very intelligent and I believe his works are worth the read. Does anyone have any books that they can suggest to me that is by Crowley? I think I need to educate myself more on him ^^

One thing about Crowley being a Cambridge undergrad and with his Golden Dawn background, is that when he wrote, he just assumed everyone knew as much as he did, so a lot of people find him hard to follow, and even have to re-read his material quite a few times to understand him, but then there's others that get him from the start. Author's like Lon Milo DeQuette, and Rodney Orpheus definitely break him down much easier, so I'd recommend keeping an eye out for them if you'reable. For anyone that uses Crowley's Thoth tarot cards, I'd recommend DeQuette's Understand the Thoth not only for the cards, but he introduces Crowley&Thelema in a very understandable way.


For Crowley, I'd probably recommend" Book 4"(or "ABA/Magick") initially. You can even find most of his stuff online. http://hermetic.com/crowley/books/#title

Thanks ^^